PDF: Benecke & al. (2005) Two homosexual pedophile sadistic serial killers: Jürgen Bartsch (Germany, ∗1946 - †1976) and Luis Alfredo Garavito Cubillos (Colombia, ∗1957). Minerva Medicolegale 125:153-69

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(The following interview originally conducted for a UK newspaper, July 2020)

During your encounter(s) with Garavito, what did you discuss?

Prison food, details of mutilation (he beheaded the kids alive & cut off genitals), his thoughts about other serial killers (I asked him, he was not interested, though, since they had lower numbers of victims), problem of abductions as (money) business vs. in pure criminal (sex crime) pursuit (sometimes, he lived in smuggler's areas, sometimes, he worked f/ salvation army), his eyeglasses (he never changed them — probably not a good idea coz of ID), my eyeglasses (he found them unusual, they were from secession war times and looked old to him (they were)), his interest in education (he had none) and magazines he could read (i could bring), money that he wanted from me, his new-found christian faith (he got baptized in prison), etc.

Did he say or describe anything that you found to be particularly shocking or unsettling?

No. He is what he is, no need to be shocked or unsettled.

Did he show any remorse for his crimes?

No, he is a crystalline psychopath.

He faked a little but if you know psychopathic people, you quickly realize it's fake.

E.g., we always drank coffee but he changed the cups (i.e., switched the coffee mugs that were brought in in the first meetings by staff — his & mine). I thought it was kind of a friendly cultural gesture or something but: 'Never assume' (Sherlock Holmes) so i asked him. Result: He had switched the cups coz he thought he might be poisoned. He did not come up with the idea I might then be poisoned. That is quite typical for a psychopath.

Also, he cried (sobbed) seeing a photo of two persons he liked but the VERY second the coffee came (then brought in by prison staff), he stopped crying. His tears: Therefore not convincing.

He also said he would never kill again and even drew a map of all places where he put the victims (the bodies were actually found there). Well, well... that was no co-operation but just a (quite clever) game of him to get attention but also to get all sentences merged into one (25 to 40 years in prison; it worked).

How did you feel as you spoke to him and looked into his eyes?

He is a mild-mannered, friendly, soft-spoken man and (like many psychopathic persons), very honest and open if he wants to and if you do not judge him.

In the first prison on the first day for the first minute or so, i thought Garavito was the head of jail since the guy i met first had a three-day beard, sweaty shirt, etc. and the other was spick and span. The sloppy man was the prison director.

We also did intelligence tests which must have been hard for him coz he did not receive education even though he wanted it very much but his father beat it out of him and told him to take care of agricultural work. i think that was friendly of him — he was interested in the attention he got but i learned very, very, very much from him, especially about abduction of kids in bright daylight in the middle of town, which helped me understand many cases afterward

He is the essence of what crime fighting is about: how could he, being the psychpath he is, have become a member of society? Is that possible for an antisocial, narcissistic pedophile violent offender or not?

Where did you meet him and what security precautions were in place?

In Colombia, obviously, in his prisons.

Security was low or better: DIFFERENT compared to european standards (they have prisons full of super-hard criminals that probably look like in a movie to europeans).

All orifices were checked (mine), no pens, no paper, no nothing; in one prison, Garavito & I even had to sit in an actual metal cage in the yard of the prison (no kidding).

However, after a few visits, Garavito brought all with hin to the meetings: pens, paper, batteries, hot coffee...

The last prison was in the countryside and quite relaxed; one day was "women visitors only" day only and THAT was strictly enforced...

It was MUCH more dangerous in the hotels where (in Villavincencio) we could only have breakfast next to two armed guys with machine guns, loaded and fingers on triggers (abduction problem).

What made or drove Garavito to kill, and kill so many people?

A miixture of early violence and sexual abuse in his family (I checked that with his sister, personally) and his alcoholic father who did not even allow the kids to go to school even though they wanted.

Alcoholism not only affects the kids after birth but also before whilst they grow as fetuses, of course: High stress, possibly substance abuse of mother, etc..

Also, genetic influences always play a role.

This all mixes and resulted here in an antisocial narcissist, i.e., psychopath.

(Terrible childhoods are not always present in serial killers, but here, it added weight to it.)

Basically, psychopathic people do not know a better way to feel a true, deep bond to others except of living out their (the killers) phantasies "with" them (the victims).

It is the maddest type of bonding imaginable.

Did he get satisfaction from it?

Yes, he is a typical serial killer who acts out his phantasies (*precisely* his phantasies, actually, because he can).

In the beginning, the killings sometimes do not go along as serial killers wish (for sadistic killers like Garavito: Victims die "to soon" or from the wrong cause of death, e.g. offender tries to strangle but victim dies of bleeding) but later they always reach their goals.

Was there anything unusual or different about the way he chose, preyed on or killed his victims?

No, he is a typical pedophile, soft, mild and friendly to kids (and others), he truly likes kids from his heart, "understands" kids (that s why they followed him voluntarily) except he abuses them...

Garavito told me that he even pitied a kid he killed because the kid had told him of his (the kid's) former child abuse and garavito could relate to that due to him being sexually abused as a kid all he time.

How many people might he have killed?

Around three hundred kids and likely some adults (but the adults only to get rid of possible witnesses, not for fulfilment of phantasies).

Newspapers in Colombia have called him the "world's worst serial killer" — is this a fitting title for him?

It does not matter to me how many they kill or how old the victims are — the killers always destroy the life of the relatives; that is the long-term problem.

The number of killed kids is very, very high in this case, yes.

What was the nature of your work on the case?

I was the only forensic scientist he ever agreed to talk to.

I had set up a forensic entomology lab in the capital city Bogotà, and the case blew whilst I was there.

Since my local colleagues even refused to draw blood from such a monster, I decided to document the case and visited him in prison(s).

I was glad that all agreed (prosecution, court, Garavito, prison chiefs in two prisons (he was moved)) and to have good friends who understood Garavitos local accent.

Did you meet Garavito or observe him in person?

Yes.

What kind of psychological conditions does Garavito have?

Typical psychopath.

In his case: type "sadist and pedophile" (this is not necessarily the case; most serial killers are heterosexual and prefer adults).

What similarities does he have to other well known serial killers?

Really everything.

He outsmarts most (not intelligent, just street smart), is very sincere if he wants (he even drew a good map so that the dead bodies could be found).

Always looking for his own benefit (due to the map, he could not be sentenced twice because all bodies were found; wants money, etc.).

Very manipulative, to me in a friendly way, though.

E.g., he knew i could not bring anything into prison (not even paper; they even checked rectally that i do not smuggle stuff in) so he had coffee there and cups and sugar and spoons and pens and batteries and paper etc.

He is one of the most friendly and soft-spoken persons i ever met.

Is this kind of behaviour possible to predict in childhood or early adult years?

Yes, the narcissism and the antisocial component, quite easily, actually.

But it is not allowed to give kids such diagnoses because they still develop and might come out fine.

Many of the psychopathic sadists (not the same thing → both must come together) also torture animals.

As a criminalist, i prefer to look for stains in adults (these killers often start with "minor" crimes) and not so much rely on predictions.

Why wasn't Garavito caught earlier?

→ No DNA work (no money)

→ He moved back and forth over wide distances

→ Adapted to local looks, clothing styles, habits, i.e., he changed his looks & manners adaptively

→ He was in prison already over a child molesting case when he was "caught" but under a wrong identity that Garavito had stolen, so that complicated it further

→ The mothers of the kids were socioeconomically (very) disadvantaged; police later regretted bitterly they had not taken the mother's request more serious (I know the actual police persons and the prosecutor personally)

Why was he so willing to confess to all of his crimes?

→ Get attention.

→ Talk about himself, compare himself to others (also to other killers, he was interested in that when I talked to him)

→ Get just one sentence for everything (which is maximum 25 to 40 years, so he might walk out one day) instead of two or more sentences (that would not allow him to ever get out of prison).

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